Curse

Mouse at Large · Jun 04, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

I can choose wether or not to rob a bank too. But if I don't rob it, does that mean that the crime is not illegal?

Complete non sequitur

The crime remains illegal, however, if the actions that constitute the crime are not undertaken, no crime is committed, thus no illegality has occurred.

Lopezus · Jun 04, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

This argument was invalidated some time ago. Search for the post, and realize how ridiculous and close minded it is to assume people talk about game balance from a character perspective.

I searched and did not find it invalidiated in any sense. So be so kind and present this to me in logical fashion.

Tyla · Jun 04, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

i'm 99% positive that you are joking because this argument proves nothing and even if such skill exists it will not make "Don't like it ,dont use it" argument less valid.

That's funny, because every time that argument is used, someone turns into a carebear.

I suppose you'll still use the same argument again if this skill actually gets implimented. Which it won't.

Avarre · Jun 04, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

I searched and did not find it invalidiated in any sense. So be so kind and present this to me in logical fashion.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=257

I hate to have to quote myself from the same thread, but it was easier than searching for it being said elsewhere.

tmakinen · Jun 04, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

The 'refutation' is nothing of the sort. Let me rephrase: "If you don't like the game, you don't have to play it". It's ANet's game and they are free to do with it whatever they well wish, including completely redesigning it, and it's your choice to either (a) play the game as it is or (b) not play the game because it doesn't meet your criteria of a good game or (c) create a better game yourself, or finally (d) be a pathetic loser and whine here when ANet's vision doesn't coincide with yours.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 04, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

It doesn't matter anymore. Whatever A-net does, you'll QQ. Nerf this, nerf that; new cookie builds that everyone wants to use will come up, so you'll QQ that you're gimping yourself if you don't use those builds. Then what? More nerfs and the cycle continues. I believe this applies to both pvp and pve.

Avarre · Jun 04, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The 'refutation' is nothing of the sort. Let me rephrase: "If you don't like the game, you don't have to play it". It's ANet's game and they are free to do with it whatever they well wish, including completely redesigning it, and it's your choice to either (a) play the game as it is or (b) not play the game because it doesn't meet your criteria of a good game or (c) create a better game yourself, or finally (d) be a pathetic loser and whine here when ANet's vision doesn't coincide with yours.

I believe you'll find that almost all of the good players have accepted your terms.

I suppose your next stop is to tell every movie critic that Star Wars was fantastic, is George Lucas's to develop freely, and saying that the later versions are utter crap compared to the older ones is to be a pathetic loser.

It may come as a shock that players can address the game from the perspective of a customer wishing to see the product improved. A product that is generally agreed was better in the older times. It may also interest you to consider the fact that the developers are just people - they have to make decisions to develop the game, and I'll bet you whatever you like that the developers are not as good at, or as experienced in the play of their own game as portions of the playerbase. This is why intelligent playerbase response is important, because if the devs spend all their time playtesting they don't get anything done promptly.

It doesn't take a genius to see where ANet makes design mistakes that have led to greater problems. The issue of profession imbalance in PvE was highlighted years ago, due to the deviation of PvE design into boosting numbers. This has since been the subject of immense work in producing band-aid fixes. This is time that could have gone into fixing the root problem, and making the game better overall. ArenaNet did one thing right - start afresh in GW2 and fix everything from the ground up.

When ANet makes changes that seem ridiculous, it diminishes the trust players have that ANet will use GW2 to fix the old mistakes that blighted their unique and original game design. It diminishes the trust players have that ANet will continue with an original vision that filled a niche in the market. Most importantly, it decreases the will of players to want to put up with the terrible community relations and development blunders yet again in a new product.

Either contribute to the discussion, or get out.

zwei2stein · Jun 04, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The 'refutation' is nothing of the sort. Let me rephrase: "If you don't like the game, you don't have to play it".

Not matter how you put it, it is basically "Shut up" argument. "Ad silencium" where you claim that discussion object is resolved by not discussing it or by ignoring it.

Example:
Mary: Abortion laws in Poland are outrageous.
Jezslo: You are not polish, they don't effect you.

Example:
John: Death sentence is wrong because innocent can be convicted for crimes he didn't commit and be executed.
Jerry: Don't commit homicide then.

It does not state anything of value, and you might as well use "STFU, GFTO" instead of it.

Sjeng · Jun 04, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

@ all QQ-ers about how "imba" skills ruin the PvE game:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

How is it valid to begin with? edit: "it" being the argument: "Don't like it? Don't play it!"

How on earth is it NOT valid??? I truly TRULY fail to see how person X using whatever build, imbalanced or not, affects the enjoyment of person Y's gameplay. The statement: "Don't like it, don't use it" is perfectly valid imho. I will admit I like ursan and SF just like many players (who also post here), and I will surely try this ether renewal build too. It looks like fun to me. But that doesn't mean I use them ALL the time! I like to be able to change my builds. I like to try stuff, but I also like to do something the "easy" way from time to time. I don't always have the time to play the "hard way" with balanced builds (I have a life you know). I like the fact Anet made this possible for PvE players. What do YOU care how I choose to play??? please please please do explain that to me. With a GOOD argument please. Anet never forced anyone to play with me or any other player who likes to use these "imba" skills. Furthermore, in ALL my playing years in GW, I have NEVER heard ANYONE complain to me in my party about me using ursan or whatever. So how come people complain on and on and on on Guru?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

This argument was invalidated some time ago. Search for the post, and realize how ridiculous and close minded it is to assume people talk about game balance from a character perspective.

Would have been a lot more constructive had you provided the link, but okay, so I've searched for it, and didn't find anything that would permanently and definitively invalidate the argument...

I did read this one:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...nce+a rgument

In this thread someone said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's not moot at all. (it = the discussion in the thread)

If PvE were very challenging, it'd be fun. The fact is, bad players want stuff to blow up quickly and easily, and thus there's nothing to strive for.

SO WHAT? Are you a bad player? I don't think you see yourself as a bad player now do you? So do YOU use skills that blow stuff up quick and easily? Probably not, because if you did, you'd be a "bad player" by your own statement. So there you go: You don't like skills that go "boom", so you don't use them. Otherwise you'd be a "bad" player.
I think calling people bad players just because they like to use skillbars that make the game easier to beat total nonsense. Isn't that the WHOLE POINT of creating builds? Isn't that what GW is all about??? This is a game that lets you create a skillbar, combining skills to beat the game as efficiently as possible. That's the whole idea! It doens't make people bad players! Doesn't everyone create new and effective builds? Don't YOU? Does this make you a bad player as well then? Of course not! So saying others are bad because they use a build that might be overpowered is hypocracy, because everybody tries to make builds as efficient as possible. That's the purpose of the game. Imho it makes people BETTER players if they manage to think of builds that are more efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, so I suppose that ANet should have avoided fixing glitches such as the gate trick then. I mean, it doesn't affect "our" way of playing is it?

THAT was an exploit/glitch, not a skill. Therefore this is not a valid argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Infact, I think ANet should give all people like you a skill that gives you all titles, makes you deal as much damage as this: [[email protected] 52638523857758563256328] (Put the mouse over the skill), make it AoE in compass range and have 1 recharge, 0.000001 cast time and cost 1 energy. DON'T LIKE IT DON'T USE IT AMIRITE????!

The exaggerated example stated above by the OP is total BS. I shall explain why:
* because a skill like that would instantly kill all enemies in range, and THAT would obviously spoil the fun for others in the party. true. But NONE of the (in your eyes) "imba" skills make the PvE experience too easy for the entire GW player base.
* And it is also NOT what people are asking for. Nobody ASKED for any of these skills. Anet just created them and people use them. Your example is overly exagerated and therefore not valid.

Sure enough the existing "overpowered" skills will make things easier for players who read these forums and are experienced enough to know how to combine these skills to take maximum advantage of them, but trust me, not everyone reads these forums, and not everyone sees these advantages. And even if they did, what of it??? How could that possibly ruin YOUR gameplay?

If you feel that you're all too leet to play the imba skills, then do it your way. Play the "hard" way. I'm fine with that. Couldn't care less! Cookies for you for being leet enough not to need overpowered skills. But please stop QQ-ing about how OTHERS choose to play. I like doing things the easy way once in a while, as do many others. Stop giving people a hard time about it! Leave them alone! ...sheesh!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Not matter how you put it, it is basically "Shut up" argument. "Ad silencium" where you claim that discussion object is resolved by not discussing it or by ignoring it.

Example:
Mary: Abortion laws in Poland are outrageous.
Jezslo: You are not polish, they don't effect you.

Example:

John: Death sentence is wrong because innocent can be convicted for crimes he didn't commit and be executed.
Jerry: Don't commit homicide then.

It does not state anything of value, and you might as well use "STFU, GFTO" instead of it.

Comparing abortion and death sentances with skills in a game... And you want to be taken seriously?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

"Don't like it, don't use it" works great.... if you like playing online games alone.

explain why? I have never ever kicked a person from any party because he/she didn't use an overpowered skill. If you think you've got a fine build, use it by all means! I might learn from your tactics even. All the better. I really don't think every single GW player will not want to play with you just because you dislike using ursan for example. There are millions of players, so you'll never have to play alone. Saying you do because of a few overpowered skills exist is not a very valid statement imho.

</rant>

to quote Savio:

Quote:

Originally Posted by savio

Most of the fanbase doesn't give a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about skill updates. No, a small portion of PvE players complaining does not mean all PvE players are complaining.

That's so true, thankfully. And it seems all complaining players are here, at guru, busy complaining instead of playing ^^

FoxBat · Jun 04, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

"Don't like it, don't use it" works great.... if you like playing online games alone.

Avarre · Jun 04, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

@ all QQ-ers about how "imba" skills ruin the PvE game:

How on earth is it NOT valid??? I truly TRULY fail to see how person X using whatever build, imbalanced or not, affects the enjoyment of person Y's gameplay.

Nobody gives a damn about person X's gameplay, or what effect it will have. The issue, as has been stated repeatedly, is that is shows ANet is willing to destroy the depth of its game to sell out to the lowest common denominator rather than making a quality product with actual depth and challenge.

This is an issue with the Developers, not an issue with others' play.

upier · Jun 04, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

I can choose wether or not to rob a bank too. But if I don't rob it, does that mean that the crime is not illegal?

Actually that's flawed.
Same way as is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You are restoring my faith in humanity.

To others:

Short and simple: If X causes problem, ignoring it does not help. Problem is still there.

If you want people to shut up ("don't use ..." argument is basically that - nicely said GFTO & Shut Up) you have to convince them that there is no problem or that what seems to be problem is not really one.

The state decides if an action is illegal.
Same thing here - A.Net decides if something is actually a problem.

sph0nz · Jun 04, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

PvE only skills essentially go against the original premise of the game, and that's why some players do not like them. Furthermore, they were implemented into the game badly (linked to title tracks), which essentially "forces" grind to achieve maximum benefit from the skills, even though the way they have been implemented has given an "incentive" to grind titles.

Skills like [skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill] can affect my gameplay regardless if I'm actually using it at the time or not. Particularly, this is self evident if you play in PUGs, who often require players to have a high norn rank along with ursan. I however, have avoided the problem of ursan by simply playing the game almost entirely with heroes and henchmen.
Furthermore, saying something like "Don't like [ursan]? Don't use it!" is a pretty stupid argument since that argument really doesn't solve any problem; it just avoids it. Players who PuG frequently will not have the choice of not being able to use a skill such as ursan blessing if they actually want to get shit done. So yeah, it can ruin my seemly personal gameplay.

tmakinen · Jun 04, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I suppose your next stop is to tell every movie critic that Star Wars was fantastic, is George Lucas's to develop freely, and saying that the later versions are utter crap compared to the older ones is to be a pathetic loser.

Non sequitur? Even the original three were all muppet show crap to begin with, and a good watch for the kid that I was when they came out. Since then I grew up and couldn't care a flying fornication about Lucas's later creations, which he is of course absolutely free to develop and advertise. A person is indeed a pathetic loser if s/he gets his/her knickers in a knot over something so absurdly insignificant as a bad sequel to a cheesy fantasy movie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It may come as a shock that players can address the game from the perspective of a customer wishing to see the product improved.

It may come as a shock that all the whiners in this thread constitute a group that is utterly insignificant to the greater scheme of things. Does it burn that Joe Casual is more important for the well-being of the game than the self-proclaimed important people?

Lord High Pwner · Jun 04, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Sometimes i wonder if the problem is more with the balance of power ( money), rather than skill balance in PvE. I've seen many posts about how A-net caters to inexperienced, QQ after QQ on Ursan and other skills that allow the "inexperienced" to get into higher level or "leet" dungeons. And it makes me wonder if people are really upset about how Anet chooses to run their game, or if they are pissed because now everyone can gain entry to these areas and get the good loot relativly easy, when they used to have to work for hours to do it. If you cant find groups because of Ursan, get a better guild. I'm seeing more QQs on having to Grind for titles. With no new content and GW2 still away off, what else can they do to give you something to occupy your time.
This is a world filled with instant gratification guys its tough to swallow but oh so true

Bryant Again · Jun 04, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord High Pwner

Sometimes i wonder if the problem is more with the balance of power ( money), rather than skill balance in PvE. I've seen many posts about how A-net caters to inexperienced, QQ after QQ on Ursan and other skills that allow the "inexperienced" to get into higher level or "leet" dungeons. And it makes me wonder if people are really upset about how Anet chooses to run their game, or if they are pissed because now everyone can gain entry to these areas and get the good loot relativly easy, when they used to have to work for hours to do it.

I don't care about loot or titles, but the integrity of the game. I don't mind people seeing all the content as long as the difficult portions still remain difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord High Pwner

This is a world filled with instant gratification guys its tough to swallow but oh so true

Thing is, why does Guild Wars have to follow this route in order to sell? In God of War you weren't given the rest of the bonuses until you did the Challenge of the Gods and beat the game on God Mode. In Mass Effect you didn't get the "Insanity Completion" achievement for beating the game on Normal, nor was the Insanity difficulty made as simple as the Easy difficulty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

It may come as a shock that all the whiners in this thread constitute a group that is utterly insignificant to the greater scheme of things. Does it burn that Joe Casual is more important for the well-being of the game than the self-proclaimed important people?

Whether or not these new additions actually help Joe Casual is more of a concern.

Tyla · Jun 04, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Isn't that the WHOLE POINT of creating builds? Isn't that what GW is all about?? This is a game that lets you create a skillbar, combining skills to beat the game as efficiently as possible. That's the whole idea! It doens't make people bad players! Doesn't everyone create new and effective builds? Don't YOU? Does this make you a bad player as well then? Of course not! So saying others are bad because they use a build that might be overpowered is hypocracy, because everybody tries to make builds as efficient as possible. That's the purpose of the game. Imho it makes people BETTER players if they manage to think of builds that are more efficient.

And Ursan is against build creation. Slap 1 skill on your bar, done.

Quote:

THAT was an exploit/glitch, not a skill. Therefore this is not a valid argument.

Yet, because I didn't use it, by your logic, it doesn't affect me.

Quote:

The exaggerated example stated above by the OP is total BS. I shall explain why:
* because a skill like that would instantly kill all enemies in range, and THAT would obviously spoil the fun for others in the party. true. But NONE of the (in your eyes) "imba" skills make the PvE experience too easy for the entire GW player base.

But if you tell them not to use it and they don't, it's not affecting your gameplay by your logic.

Quote:

* And it is also NOT what people are asking for. Nobody ASKED for any of these skills. Anet just created them and people use them. Your example is overly exagerated and therefore not valid.

People didn't ask for Ursan. And yes, it is exagerated, but does that stop Ursan being overpowered?

Quote:

Sure enough the existing "overpowered" skills will make things easier for players who read these forums and are experienced enough to know how to combine these skills to take maximum advantage of them, but trust me, not everyone reads these forums, and not everyone sees these advantages. And even if they did, what of it??? How could that possibly ruin YOUR gameplay?

Last time I checked there's no such thing as combining skills with Ursan.

Quote:

explain why? I have never ever kicked a person from any party because he/she didn't use an overpowered skill. If you think you've got a fine build, use it by all means! I might learn from your tactics even. All the better. I really don't think every single GW player will not want to play with you just because you dislike using ursan for example. There are millions of players, so you'll never have to play alone. Saying you do because of a few overpowered skills exist is not a very valid statement imho.

Wait, if this game is about creating builds for the strongest possible ones, then what about Ursan? You're just slapping a pre-made build on your bar that's all in one skill.

Lopezus · Jun 04, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It's an absolutely retarded and closeminded argument, because 95% of the time the argument against overpowered skills stems from an analysis of the consequences on overall game design and balance, not from the perspective of the player.

Whether I use Ursan or not doesn't change the fact it shows a violation of the original game design. Whether I use SY and ER or not doesn't change the fact they remove challenge and depth from the game.

Whether you use them or not doesn't matter to me, what matters is that someone in ANet who has the power to create the game thought these were a good idea, and that doesn't give me confidence in the future - because these kind of gimmicks are not maintainable development, and just tell me that ANet will degrade what they make to squeeze some money out of it.

But your argument is exectly presented from perspective of the player, yours to be precise. First i don't see any of violation of original game desgin, second
if SY or ER remove challenge and depth from game, and logically that means removing them will bring back the challange and depth to guildwars, so how come simply not using them won't make game deep and challanging for you ?

Quote:

urthermore, saying something like "Don't like

EotN
PvE only Ursan Blessing

* 30
* 10

Elite Skill. You take on the aspect of the bear. Your Energy returns to maximum and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have +10..20 armor and +100..200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This skill ends when your Energy drops to 0. (Attrib: Norn rank)

? Don't use it!" is a pretty stupid argument since that argument really doesn't solve any problem; it just avoids it. Players who PuG frequently will not have the choice of not being able to use a skill such as ursan blessing if they actually want to get shit done. So yeah, it can ruin my seemly personal gameplay.

That has nothing to do with balance of the game but it has all to do with PUG mentality and there is nothing ANET can do about it: nerfing, balancing, adding or removing skills won't help with that. There will alwayes be some specific :build,proffesion etc that PUGS will try to enoforce in order "to get the shit done "

Bryant Again · Jun 04, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

if SY or ER remove challenge and depth from game, and logically that means removing them will bring back the challange and depth to guildwars, so how come simply not using them won't make game deep and challanging for you ?

Because I'm not using the best tools given to me. A challenge is when you're using the best of the best, be it from your skill and otherwise, and it is difficult. When you have to impose challenges on yourself, it is not satisfying. Self-imposed challenge is not terribly enjoyable, evidenced by the fact that difficulty settings haven't died years ago.

Kashrlyyk · Jun 04, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

o hai guise i think that the dupe bug didnt need fixing cuz u didnt have to use it if u didnt want to and it doesnt affect ur gameplay if others use it

Retards inbound

That has be refuted a very long time ago. "Works as intended" and "doesn´t work as intended"! Look it up!